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Blaf

KMnO4 flash

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Am I the only one here starting new topics? If so, then be it...

Any bad experiences with KMnO4 + S + Al flash? They say this compound is unstable and blah, blah.... From my personal experience, the flash works OK, it's messy if you spread it around, though. Especially on rainy day, heh. But generally, it works good in tightly confined casings. I have quantity of it stored for years now in a sealed glass vessel and it works as good as the first day I mixed it. The ratio of ingredients I use would not be by weight but by volume...it goes like this:

KMnO4 - 3 parts
Sulphur - 1 part
Aluminum bronze - 1 part

Unfortunately, I have no hold of German Black type to try it with...it would probably work even better.

Any clever observations would be highly appreciated by humble me...

Blaf

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Apparantly you are indeed the only ENGLISH topic starter.

I've made flash with 50% KMnO4 and 50% Al-powder (50micrometer)(percentages by volume). Nice bang and very good flash. Could be louder with better casings, but was fine enough.

I don't have any bad experiences. I was very carefull with mixing (diaper-methode), filling and transport because of the (high?) sensitivity. You can find some pictures/movies on the next page (only the top 3 are mine): http://members.pyroforum.nl/gamekeeper/flash.html

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Hello Gamekeeper

Tnx for comment. As you mentioned "sensitivity" of the KMnO4 flash, I recalled a scene from some 35 years back in history. It includes my best friend and humble me...we were a duo well known in the neighbourhood by hand made crackers and similar stuff. Once, we made a few larger (it's relative term, though) crackers with mentioned flash and one of them did not go bang, eventhough the fuse burned completely. We took it and placed it on a piece of flat rock, topped it with another flat piece and then I lifted the biggest boulder I could and smashed it against upper rock. Well, there we come to sensitivity... it went off with a loud bang! I couldn't believe my ears but it happened right then, right there. But let's be honest - everything has a certain sensitivity treshold...even if you apply enough pressure (in a milisecond time) to sawdust it will go bang when it reaches its inflammation temperature.
This is just a short flick from my past...maybe someone has quite different experiences with this mixture but as far as I'm concerned it's stabile and not so sensitive.

Tnx again!

Blaf

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Pyrotechnics is quiet a safe hobby if you use you're mind,
small quantities of KMnO4 flash is allways fun, but i would NEVER but NEVER use KMnO4 in rockets or starmines or something like that,
The only thing that makes pyro unsafe is the tought that you think you're untouchable, many beginning pyro's have that tought, they think: wooooooooow KClO3+Al is good, it would work even better with S, then they think, oh ClO3 salts and S don't go very good together, then again they think, well i am not that stupid as other people, i will work safe and controlled, there you have the feeling of God untill something goes wrong,

same problem with all the explosive hobbyists here, they al think TATP will never go off in their hands, because they aren't that clumsy as people who had accidents(in their minds) i have warned people here many times but they simply don't listen, well not my problem, i won't mind if they will die tomorrow but i am more afraid of the fact to lose some good sources for chemicals

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Hello Exhile

Thanks for dropping by. Yes, you're right in general that everything here should be taken with propper care and understanding. Especially when chemicals are involved. My little "sensitivity" experiment goes back to the end of 70s when safety wasn't such a big pain in the ass (It was invented much later). And I'm agree with you that certain safety margin has to be respected here. Having mentioned safety - you see, I haven't tried my tourbillion yet because I'm still looking for safe place to fire it. That much of safety. Just review again my "sensitivity" test with KPermanganate+S+Al mixture - should it be considered as sensitive to friction? If you ask me, no, not exactly.

Talking about sensitivity - I remember (when I was a kid) a certain type of gadget especially made make bangs, based on friction principle. We called it "tondin" which probably has some meaning in Italian...anyhow, it consisted of a metal handle with a heavy thick walled cylinder welded on one end. All together, it was about 50-60cm long. The cylinder was drilled 3/4 of its lenght through center and appropriately sized piston was then made to tightly fill the hole. Basically, you have a thick walled metal chamber with a piston on a long metal handle. Then, you take the piston out and place a thin layer of say....sulphur on the bottom of chamber, place the piston back and simply blow the piston side protruding from the chamber against firm surface. If you apply enough pressure, it goes bang. Safety? I have to admit, the only safety feature on this was metal chain linking a piston and a blowing head to keep them together after explosion....sorry - deflagration. I'm talking here about sensitivity which is really relative term...and I'm deeply convinced that everything on this Earth can be brought to its sensitivity edge if enough force is used. We can term it as "Blaf's Universal Sensitivity Principle"...it has something to do with thermodynamics, I'm sure.

Exhile my friend, don't worry - now, with all that experience and time behind me, I'm much wiser.

Blaf

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You have allready proved to me that you are to be trusted with pyro, i was just questioning the fact that KMnO4 flash is relativly safe, if you're chems are fine enough you have a fucking deadly flash :shock:.
Blaf, it's not because you haven't noticed the fact that it's sensitive that it means it isn't there, i call you lucky, in all the years of pyro i have had some small accidents because i didn't believe it was that sensitive,
this wasn't actually a warn for you my friend but for all the other members here.

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Hi All,

I sometimes use this flash too (KMnO4/Al/S), only small quantities and I always mix the ingredients just before I use the flash.

My question is about the Al powder I have, when I bought it it was already coated with 2% of fat
Now I was thinking of making a small batch and store it but does someone know how the fat will affect the long term stability of the flash?

Many thanks in advance

Ps: I' ve also got uncoated Mg powder left but I guess it's kind of a deadly substitute for the Al right...?

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Hello PK

Sorry, I have no satisfactory answer for you in this regard. Just wanted to kill some time while waiting for an expert in this field. And since I'm here it would be OK if I say something...as far as I know, no strange chemical reactions would occure.

Blaf

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Hello Blaf thanks for replying, I know maybe it's a strange idee but it's not really the fat in the mix I'm worrying about but rather the sulfer.

We all know KMn04 - Sulfer is not a good combination and I thought maybe the fat could make the KMnO4 and the sulfer react more easely since a little bit of KMnO4 could dissolve in the fat and little particles of sulfer could come into the fat too and this would form a very intimate contact between these two... which could possibly affect long term stability.

Well this is what I was thinking offcourse it's not even nesessary to say that I may be completely wrong but I would just like to be shure.(understandable right :wink: )

Edit: Or else I would just have to replace the sulfer with charcoal , does someone has experiance with this?

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If you do that you will overfuel you're composition, sulfur has only one goal and that is to make the sas more sensitive(flahs more sensitive :shock: )

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So actually it has no use in KMnO4 flash?

I thought it was also in the flash to give a greater gas output and hence better flash?

Bye the way I don't think I would overfuel it because I would add lesser charcoal then I would add sulfer.

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You can work that out by using stoichiometrie,

S also gives some gas as you said but it actually slows down the mix a bith, in case of blackpowder it eliminates the precipation of carbonate so the mix will burn slower.

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I may have a dumb question but if somewone could help me with it it would be greatly apriciated.
When you mix this type of flash you should be carefull i know that but i have KMnO4 and it's not a powder its more like a bunch off fine flakes to coarse to use directly in a comp.
But how do you get em finer can you just grind it with a pestle and mortar or is there another way to do it because KMnO4 is poiseness and im not realy intrested in inhaling some very fine dust ofcoarse you can put on a respirator and gloves and so but is there a better way then with the pestle and mortar

Pirate

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Pirate my Man, have you ever considered ball-milling your Permanganate? No? You can also use coffee grinder...even electric one with no danger at all. Just do not inhale that fine dust. Even if you do, you'll not drop dead immediately. It will take some time before it happens, say, some 50 to 60 years, maybe even loger.

Blaf

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Ah so permangate on it's own is compltely harmless i dont mean the poiseness part but for grinding thats good to know thanks :wink:
And in 50-60 years ill probably be dead anyway so lets alyet forget about the respirator then i dont like to wear those things anyway :D (just kidding)
I knew it was a stupid question but yeah sombody has to sacrifice himself to ask :oops:
Its just im rather safe then sorry its like with my motorcycle i can drive pretty good i can scrape my knee easely but i still am reading and studying on how i can do it better and safer. :wink:

Pirate

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I remeber, when I was a kid, there was some kind of infection on my little butt....I spent lots of time sitting in warm Water/Permanganate solution as this was used to disinfect infected area. According to safety wowsers (they say "WOW" at everything...) I should have been dead long time ago. So do not worry...

Blaf

p.s. Could you send me an e-mail with details about your bike, I'd like to know about it...

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Do not spread fear around...yes, it's harmful if you toss it too much...it could even make your butt deep violet coloured....he, he, he.

Blaf

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I remeber, when I was a kid, there was some kind of infection on my little butt....I spent lots of time sitting in warm Water/Permanganate solution as this was used to disinfect infected area. According to safety wowsers (they say "WOW" at everything...) I should have been dead long time ago. So do not worry...


Hehe :D
Ive heard about it before that they use permangate to kill bacteries on fish(Koi's) by throwing a litle in the water and on that site they also said that it is possible that it makes purple spots on your skin if you come in contact with it.
But since blaf used to bathe in it it's probably pritty safe, i also dont think Blaf his parents wanted to kill him so they didn't throw it in without knowing what they where doing.
Ofcoarse you do have to be careful with it like al chems especialy iff there poiseness in certain quanteties :wink:

Ps: My mail should be on the way i think that the option to send a copy to my own mailbox was on but i haven't received anything yet so let me know if you dont get it

Pirate

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Potassium Permanganate completely harmless?!!  :x It can make you blind if you get it in your eyes....


A fridge is also verry dangerous!!!!



if you get it in your eyes! :D

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Been using this Flah for years.
Stored in a plastic bottle for months and still works as a charm.
Just be carefull with moisture, it will turn the KMnO4 into MNO2.

Flakes can easily be grinded in a mortar or ball-milled. When you have too much dust flying around you'll notice. Everything remotely moist will turn a nice purple/brown. Just wear a little mask and don't throw it around and you'll be fine.

Just be sure to mix using diaper method.

Gr33tZ

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And Tyneman do you also make your flash wit sulpher or only KMnO4 + Al?
I read somwhere on the net, i think it was on the uk rocketry forum that if you get a sort of green slime on your permangate flash that you best run because that slime is a litle les stable then nitroglycerine but they didn't say how you could get to this stadium not that im gona try it out but it probably was when moist got to it i think(please correct me if im wrong)

Pirate

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You wouldn't believe this Pirate:
I have a small batch of Permanganate, Al, S flash lying in a glass vessel for more than 15 years now....and it's completely unchanged. You bet it works as it's mixed this morning....

Blaf

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In another post you also mentioned youre stored flash but darn 15 years is a real long time.
Then i was a 7 year old boy when you made that flash 8)
And the glas vessel is it airtight ?
And if i may ask how come you kept it for so long without using it.

Pirate

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I wrote "15 years" as not ot scare you to death....in fact it could be easily much longer. How come that I haven't use it that long....I don't really know. Maybe those consumer fireworks on the free market spoiled the fun. Or perhaps I overgrown "bangers"....don't know.

Blaf

p.s. I've got your mail with no problem, thanks.

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